Dawah team butchers their god – Allah has no-one to hear his prayers

Dawah team butchers their god – Allah has no-one to hear his prayers

Hatun and Abbas discuss who Allah is praying to in Sura 33:43 and Sura 33:56.

And who is Allah’s Lord in Sura 19:64? [Gabriel said], “And we [angels] descend not except by the order of your Lord. To Him belongs that before us and that behind us and what is in between. And never is your Lord forgetful” (Note ‘Gabriel’ and ‘angels’ are not in the Arabic)

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Author: DCCI Ministries

Defend Christ Critique Islam (DCCI) Ministries seeks to preach the Gospel to Muslims using apologetics and polemics.

121 thoughts on “Dawah team butchers their god – Allah has no-one to hear his prayers”

  1. Some Questions and answers:
    Q:
    (i) Why does Gabriel ask Prophet Muhammad three times in the cave?
    (ii) Is Fatiha (Sura 1st) the prayer of God?
    (iii) Is God asking to be guided in Q.1, v.5?
    (iv) Is God a bad communicator?
    (v) Who speaks in Q.19, v.64?

    A:
    1. Gabriel is not omniscient God. This is basic Faith.
    Angels are not gods, they were sent by God to Prophet Muhammad without knowing or anticipating a fact if Prophet Muhammad is illiterate person.
    In Hadith, A repetition three times (four times in the Court) is used to ensure a making up of one’s mind.
    – 1st rejection may be due to one’s shyness.
    – 2nd rejection may be one’s change of mind.
    – 3rd rejection is one’s certainty:
    Muslim Book 7, Hadith 3083
    ‘Ata’ reported: …I would seek good advice from my Lord thrice and then I would make up (my mind) about this affair. After seeking good advice THRICE, he made up his mind….

    In the Bible:
    Peter was asked THRICE to feed Jesus sheep. Is Jesus deaf?
    Jn 21:17
    He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the THIRD time, Lovest thou me?

    Peter was asked THRICE to eat. Is Jesus deaf?
    Acts 10
    13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.16 This was done THRICE: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

  2. 2. Fatiha is the Allah’s words that remold and rephrase the prayer’s words, as much as “Learning sentence”.
    There’s no imperative word “Qul” (Say) in Fatiha.
    Only Qur’an is protected in verbatim form. There’s another “genre” of Allah words – known as “Qudsi verses” – in Hadith that can be redacted by Prophet’s sayings.

    When Fatiha is revealed by Gabriel to Prophet Muhammad, it makes Satan trembled a lot because it shows a divine seriousness to teach all believers how to pray correctly.

    The Word of Allah has many levels:
    – Direct commandments (Imperative verses) of Allah, usually with a marker “Qul” (Say), in Qur’an.
    – Allah’s words that *re-phrase* a mortal’s word (including angels’ words in Q.19, v,64), in Qur’an.
    – Qudsi verses in Hadith, i.e. Prophet is allowed to rephrase Allah’s words.
    – True Monotheist verses in today’s corrupt Bible.

  3. 3. Verse Q. 1, v.5 is in a category of the Learning statement.

    4. God is the best communicator who teaches the humans how to speak.

    5. In Q. 19, v.64 angels are the ones who firstly speak but it is rephrased by Allah.

  4. Acts 10 is perhaps the most “silliest” chapter in the NT Bible. What’s the purpose to offer the “heavenly zoo” to Peter at time when he is fasting?
    Worse, why does Jesus feel the need to ask Peter to “kill” the beasts in heavenly zoo?
    Why don’t the angels help slaughter them for Peter anyway?

    And the most worst and silliest thing of all is, Jesus got dumped by Peter’s rejections thrice….and, nothing happens.

    1. It signals the end of dietary restrictions on Jews first laid out in the Old Testament. It is a lot like an abrogation of dietary laws. This is just another step in bringing the Gentiles into the saving grace of God.

      1. Are you a big fan of the Abrogation Theory of the Bible?

        For me, it is amateurish. Why? Because, Thing that abrogates can be abrogated as well. I remember what I say on the Jewish remark on “the last error shall be worse” in Mt 27:64 at other thread of comments.

        If God had abrogated dietary law, there’s no guarantee he would not have abrogated and changed his mind afterward at time shall he feel certain things are so boring. Uncertain God has uncertain unpredictable behaviors.

        1. I agree with your analysis and your comment. The Jews had developed a superior attitude to the rest of humanity and this was a way to change that. If you go back to the Old Testament, Moses married a black woman and his sons and daughter did not approve of it. A god that can truly see the future in vivid detail would not need to abrogate anything. God’s purpose for us and this world is not well understood. God rarely intervenes in the affairs of man and I think He would only do that when it had a spiritual effect beyond our secular experience. We believe that God allows free will which also suggests that there is an allowance for things to happen that are disorderly and even terrible. I offer you the story of Job when God and Satan agreed to test Job. Job experienced pain and misery not because of his own actions but because of the conflict between God and Satan. We are promised that every tear will be wiped away only in the Last Days.
          I believe that God occasionally intervenes to assure a future desired outcome. In the Bible, it says God regretted making Saul king. It might just as well said God regretted granting free will. God suffers and permits our pain and pleasure on the Earth but takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

          1. I have to correct you there, Danny.
            In fact, God does intervene a lot. He keeps interfering in every sec so that the evils are back on tracts, on checks, under control.

            I can’t accept a pseudo-agnostic belief that God rarely intervenes, or that he just stands watching Stephen stoned by the crowd as Acts 7. I am a staunch believer that a certain Problem of Evil that befalls a person is something overdue upon him to happen, and that he has been lucky enough avoided it.

            Had God fell asleep just a minute, Satan would have crossed over all his minions from the evil realm to our realm here thru the evil portals. We may naively think that a change of wind and temperature out there has nothing to do with the incoming disaster? Change of a cloud’s course could be the act of evils, but thankfully God intervenes a lot to reduce or distract away the evilness away from the believers.

  5. Acts 10 may reveal some funny things:
    – Jesus tries to tempt Peter for breaking his fasting, and Jesus fails miserably.
    – It is okay to reject Jesus’s commandment thrice if or as long as his order is silly anyway.

  6. Both Unitarians and Muslims believe that the death cannot overcome God.

    Both Unitarians and Muslims believe that any painful sensation (such as sufferings of torture or pangs of death) cannot touch God. God is creator of all sensation. Crucifixion is a theatrical scam anyway.
    Ps 135:6
    Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.

  7. When the Christian preachers “threaten” a Moslem with an intimidating tone : you will die in your sin if you don’t have Jesus for paying your sin, actually the Islamic faith responds with arguments:
    – Each living soul will taste death. so everyone pays for his own sin, without exception. including Jesus.
    – Each living one will approach crossing over the Hell for purgatory, so once again, everyone pays for his own sin, without exception, including Jesus.
    – Jesus will refuse to plead for the sinners, known as Shafa’ah, let alone to substitute anyone’s sins.

    1. Purgatory is an invention of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church used this invention to great advantage to raise money for the Crusades. The practice finally became overbearing to the point it caused a split in the church called the Protestant Reformation. So what is the Arabic word for Purgatory? Almutahar? I tried looking it up in the Qur’an and failed to get anything. So in Muslim Purgatory is there a limit on how many can get out, like one in a thousand? It seems like with Catholics the only limit is how much money you send the Pope/Church.

      1. “Danny Newton says: Purgatory is an invention of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church used this invention to great advantage to raise money for the Crusades.”

        Islam comes before Crusades.

        “The practice finally became overbearing to the point it caused a split in the church called the Protestant Reformation.”

        But for thousand years Protestants say yes for Theotokos. Shame on them.
        If Protestants were genuine, where’s Martin Luther of 4th century?

        “So what is the Arabic word for Purgatory? Almutahar? I tried looking it up in the Qur’an and failed to get anything.”

        “So in Muslim Purgatory is there a limit on how many can get out, like one in a thousand?

        I prefer not to burst this bubble. There’s possibility that Hell will be cool, like as extension of Paradise after Shafa’ah. Before that, at the last Shafa’ah, Allah will take out a handful of sinners (a handful = as big as the world we have ever known) from Hell, and will let them enter Paradise.

        “It seems like with Catholics the only limit is how much money you send the Pope/Church.”

        It depends on the size of Monotheist spot in heart.
        A weak Monotheist signal that vibes from the sinner’s heart will be recognized by angels, and the sinful Monotheists will be taken away from Hell to Paradise.

        1. [email protected]
          says:
          22 December 2018 at 4:56 am
          “Danny Newton says: Purgatory is an invention of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church used this invention to great advantage to raise money for the Crusades.”
          [email protected]: Islam comes before Crusades.

          The invention of Purgatory was to monetize the work of the church. The relationship between man and his God had no value. But when the Church caused forgiveness to have a value beyond the sinner, the church took in cash in order to pay for the extensive assets in terms of land and manpower that was consumed. Getting your mother out of purgatory was simply a matter of purchasing the excess merit that had been built up in heaven by the saints.

          1. Purgatory has nothing to do with the Indulgence money in Catholicism. In Judaism, the believer’s soul will be tried thru fire like a purification of silver in the fire.
            Purgatory cannot be avoided with money. Indulgence paper of the Catholics is not designed to make them “miss” Purgatory, but just to reduce its intense.

      2. Illustration of Purgatory in Hadith is unique, it is not about a special place in Hell (as in Catholicism or other faiths), but more as a Monotheist heart that can’t be destroyed in the deep fire:
        Bukhari Vol. 9, Book 93, Hadith 532
        Allah will say, Go and take out (of Hell) anyone in whose heart you find faith equal to the weight of an atom, and so they will take out all those whom they will recognize. Abu Sa’id said: If you do not believe me then read the Holy Verse: Surely! Allah wrongs not even of the weight of an atom (or a smallest ant) but if there is any good (done) He doubles it. (4.40) The Prophet added, Then the prophets and Angels and the believers will intercede, and (last of all) the Almighty (Allah) will say, Now remains My Intercession. He will then hold a HANDFUL of the Fire from which He will take out some people whose bodies have been burnt, and they will be thrown into a river at the entrance of Paradise, called the water of life. They will grow on its banks, as a seed carried by the torrent grows. You have noticed how it grows beside a rock or beside a tree, and how the side facing the sun is usually green while the side facing the shade is white. Those people will come out (of the River of Life) like pearls, and they will have (golden) necklaces, and then they will enter Paradise whereupon the people of Paradise will say, These are the people emancipated by the Beneficent. He has admitted them into Paradise without them having done any good deeds and without sending forth any good (for themselves). Then it will be said to them, For you is what you have seen and its equivalent as well.

    2. [email protected] says:
      20 December 2018 at 8:42 am
      When the Christian preachers “threaten” a Moslem with an intimidating tone : you will die in your sin if you don’t have Jesus for paying your sin, actually the Islamic faith responds with arguments:
      – Each living soul will taste death. so everyone pays for his own sin, without exception. including Jesus.

      There are a few exceptions to this: According to the Hadith, a fetus can pull its parents into Paradise. Also there are 70,000 or 700,000 of the first who enter Paradise who do not have to account for their sins. The Hadith says that Kadija, Muhammed’s first wife, is in Paradise. I don’t remember her being a Muslim. It seems that just loving Muhammed is a ticket to Paradise. Wasn’t Kadija and Muhammed’s uncle non-believers? The actions of three rows of Muslims praying for the deceased will send you to Paradise. Muhammed declared one of his soldiers, Talhah, a resident of Paradise, thus showing that you don’t have to pay for your own sins.
      Christians believe that Jesus was sinless, thus rendering Him the perfect and final sacrifice for all sin. That means he did not commit Zina. The scene which you so often refer to is seen by the Christian and an anointment for burial. Jihadis often commit fornication and adultery before killing themselves or engaging in futile acts of terror because they know that this act assures them of Paradise. Jesus was looking at His last hours as a human on Earth and a death which I believe was painful, so Zina was probably not on His mind.

      1. Of course every Monotheists will enter Paradise, but the question is “when”?
        Every soul – Moslems, Jews, Unitarians, pagans, Jesus, Prophets, et cetera – will have to cross over and pass thru the Hell, i.e. Purgatory. The place over the hot bridge depends on the goodness, it could be 1 second, 1 minute, 1 hour, 1 day, 1 week, 1 month, 1 year, 1 decade, 1 century, 1 millennium…No one can avoid it.

        1. If one-third of the people of the people in Paradise are people of the Book or from the people of Musa, the remaining two-thirds are suppose to be Muslims. I believe Muhammed said that out of 120 rows, eighty would be from his nation. Now the math gets difficult because there are more unknowns than equations. The number of men and women in Paradise who are Muslim will depend upon how many jihadis are in Paradise. If there are no jihadis in Paradise, then the ratio of women to men in the Muslim section of Paradise will be two to one. This would make women the majority in Paradise and Hell. If all of the men in Muslim Paradise are jihadis, then the ratio of women to men will be seventy to one (discounting the houris). I am ignoring the seventy or seven hundred thousand who are getting a get-out-of-Hell free card. Supposedly, the 70 women per jihadi will be their “inheritance from Hell” which will be quite few Jews and Christians. At a certain point or fraction of jihadis, the number of Christians and Jews in in the Muslim section of Paradise will exceed the number of Muslims. If I am correct, that point is when one out of 420 Muslims are Jihadis, more than half of Paradise will be non-Muslim. But, it seems that going to Paradise is a pretty unlikely event for a Muslim given the great war to come in the future and all of the Jihadis required to fight it. Of course, Allah knows best.

          1. Are you working in stock market or what, Danny? I don’t understand why you think and go into a strict mathematical equation for this issue.
            There are many Moslems whose death is counted as martyrdom, such as being drowned, sickness of internal organs, and vehicle accidents.

          2. 8 ways of martyrdom:
            Muwatta Malik Book 16, Hadith 36
            The Messenger of Allah said, There are seven kinds of martyr other than those killed in the way of Allah. Someone who is killed by the plague is a martyr, someone who drowns is a martyr, someone who dies of pleurisy is a martyr, someone who dies of a disease of the belly is a martyr, someone who dies by fire is a martyr, someone who dies under a falling building is a martyr and a woman who dies in childbirth is a martyr.

            Riyad as-Salihin Book 12, Hadith 1354
            The Companions asked: O Messenger of Allah, Then who are the martyrs? He replied, He who is killed in the way of Allah is a martyr; he who dies naturally in the Cause of Allah is a martyr; he who dies of plague is a martyr; and he who dies of a belly disease is a martyr; and he who is drowned is a martyr.

          3. Reasons why suicide is not Jihad:
            1. Moslem armies go to the battles by wielding the swords and riding the vehicles.
            If the intention were to “commit suicide as martyr”, they should have gone to the battles without any preparation whatsoever, such as rushing stupidly towards the tip of spears of enemy, using a fistfight only, acting like a dumb sheep going to slaughter, even lining up the weak, aging, underage and the sick men to the battles.
            Abi Dawud Book 14, Hadith 2774
            Anas bin Malik said: A youth of Aslam said: Apostle of Allah, I wish to go on an expedition, but I have no property to make myself equipped. He said: Go to so and so Ansari who prepared equipment (for the battle) but fell ill. And tell him that the Apostle of Allah has conveyed his regards to you. And then tell him: Give him all the equipment you have made. He came to him, and told him that. He said to his wife: O so and so, give him all the equipment I have made.

            2. Prophet Muhammad prays to God for defeating the enemy combatants, not for being killed.
            Bukhari Vol. 4, Book 52, Hadith 266
            Narrated Salim Abu An-Nadr: I read in it that Allah’s Messenger in one of his military expeditions against the enemy, waited till the sun declined and then he got up amongst the people saying, O people, Do not wish to meet the enemy, and rather ask Allah for safety, but when you face the enemy, be patient, and remember that Paradise is under the shades of swords. Then he said, O Allah, the Revealer of the Holy Book, and the Mover of the clouds and the Defeater of the clans, defeat them, and grant us victory over them.

            3. Prophet Muhammad forbids Moslems from committing suicide even though they were in a last desperation and under the imminent defeat.
            Bukhari Vol. 9, Book 90, Hadith 343
            Narrated `Abdullah bin Abi `Aufa: Allah’s Messenger said, Do not long for meeting your enemy, and should ask Allah for safety (from all sorts of evil).

            4. Suicide is a way of rage for wrongly tempting God.
            Riyad as-Salihin Book 17, Hadith 1497
            Jabir reported: The Messenger of Allah said, Do not invoke curses on yourself, or on your children, or on your possessions, lest you should happen to do it at a moment when the supplications are accepted, and your prayer might be granted.
            Jami` at-Tirmidhi Vol. 6, Book 45, Hadith 3381
            Jabir narrated that : the Messenger of Allah said: There is none who utters a supplication, except that Allah gives him what he asked, or prevents evil from him that is equal to it – as long as he does not supplicate for something evil, or the cutting of ties of the womb.

            5. Expecting death is a sin forbidden to do in Islam:
            Nasa’i Vol. 3, Book 21, Hadith 1824
            Qais said: I entered upon Khabbab when he had been cauterized on his stomach seven times. He said: Were it not that the Messenger of Allah forbade us to pray for death, I would have prayed for it.
            Nasa’i Vol. 3, Book 21, Hadith 1823
            It was narrated that Anas said: The Messenger of Allah said: Do not pray for death or wish for it. Whoever insists on praying for it let him say: Allahumma ahini ma kanatil-hayatu khairanli wa tawaffani idha kanatil-wafatu khairanli (O Allah, keep me alive so long as life is good for me, and cause me to die when death is good for me.)

            6. Natural death during war and doing a goodness for Islam is equally counted as martyrdom:
            Riyad as-Salihin Book 12, Hadith 1354
            The Companions asked: O Messenger of Allah, Then who are the martyrs? He replied, He who is killed in the way of Allah is a martyr; he who dies naturally in the Cause of Allah is a martyr; he who dies of plague is a martyr; and he who dies of a belly disease is a martyr; and he who is drowned is a martyr.

          4. During the Iran-Iraq war, there were not enough arms to give all of the Iranian soldiers, mostly children, a weapon, so they charged the Iraqis knowing that their gun would be picked up from a fellow soldier who was mown down by the Iraqis just ahead of them. After the US intervened in Iraq, there was found warehouses full of children bodies, possibly those killed in the Iran-Iraq war. In spite of these sacrifices, Iran eventually had to sue for peace in the war. Neither side considered the other true Muslims so this is going to make the Day of Resurrection quite interesting. The Prophet was reported saying that the believers are like a white hair on a black ox.

  8. Does Allah mistakenly entrust the Jewish scholars for preserving the Bible?

    The answer is, actually the Arab word in “Tuhfizu” in Q.5, v.44 does not mean “entrust”, rather it means “to let keep”. The precise Arabic word “entrust” ought to be “Atamanaa” (أتمنى), from the root word “Amana”.

    Secondly. If God were to “entrust” (let u say this is for the sake of arguments) the scholars, only the “real” faithful scholars does God assign for preserving the originality of His Bible, not those 7th Century fake group of Jews. Since they corrupted the Bible, it means they are not those real scholars assigned by God in Q.5, v.44.

  9. The structure of Arabic words in Q.9, v.111 makes it plain to see that the only reason why Allah lets us Moslems (including Prophet Muhammad and other Prophets) enter Paradise is because of His mercy, that He chooses to “purchase” both Moslems and our properties, that’s all.

    It is a gift worthy of being enjoyed for, not as reward (wage) of goodness to make a boasting.

    Thus, we get Paradise because of Allah mercy, regardless whether we (also other Monotheists with a jot of Tawhid in the souls) do a great goodness, or just do a few goodness, or conduct a correct Jihad, or perhaps worst become a “killer” (that will require a Purgatory) outside a way of Jihad.

  10. How do we know that Jesus just faked his suffering on the cross?
    Answer:
    – Jesus never sheds any drop of tears on the cross, ironically he just sheds a lot of tears *before* getting arrested when he was praying.

    – Jesus ever hints a secret he owns, i.e. ability to not feel the pains of the wounds (invulnerable), thus at least he just feels “anesthetic” (insensitive, insusceptible of pain) any time his enemy hurts him:
    Lk 10:19
    Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means *hurt* you.

    1. ACTS Chapter 1 The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 until the day in which [a]He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen, 3 to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many [b]infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.

      The Bible assures us that Christ suffered. If he did not, the Romans executioners would have performed a miracle. We believe that Christ suffered our punishment that we richly deserve. The idea that an animal must suffer death for the sins of man is in the Old Testament. That old sacrificial system was brought to an end with His perfect sacrifice. To end that system, a dramatic difference between the old system and the new system must be performed by the only One with the power to perform it.

      1. “Danny Newton says: The Bible assures us that Christ suffered. If he did not, the Romans executioners would have performed a miracle. We believe that Christ suffered our punishment that we richly deserve. The idea that an animal must suffer death for the sins of man is in the Old Testament. That old sacrificial system was brought to an end with His perfect sacrifice. To end that system, a dramatic difference between the old system and the new system must be performed by the only One with the power to perform it.”

        I have once come across the website somewhere in which there’s a debate among Unitarian, Jew and some Trinitarian. A Jew questions the Trinitarians and Moslem of an “error” in the saying of Mt 27:64 “so the last error shall be worse than the first”.
        Moslem says it refers to the indication that there’s an “error” in crucifixion, the Romans realise they had crucified a wrong guy.
        Trinitarians say it refers to an error of not breaking Jesus’ legs.
        But a Jew says that the error actually refers to a notion *if* the Hashem (God) had made a mistake for 2,000 years on rejection of human sacrifice, then he must need a *much more bigger error* to conceal it. If the Hashem conducted and circulated such a “2,000-year lie”to fool the Jews, then, there’s no guarantee that he will not fool the Trinitarians this time.

        1. The Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah, mostly because they expected a better world at his coming. It got worse, especially if you were besieged at Masada. They also closed their Cannon or Old Testament about 90 AD to prevent anything being added to the Old Testament.
          God created us in his image, thus we are spiritual beings because God is Spirit. We naturally seek out the supernatural and a relationship with the Almighty. All of this takes place on a battlefield of ideas. Satan is loose on the earth and causing enough doubt that the only path to God is through faith. Study helps but we will never have enough knowledge to enter into certainty via philosophy alone. The Holy Spirit convicts us of our sin and our inability to keep the law. We enter into the presence of God via his mercy and grace only. Christians believe via Hebrews 6:18 that it is impossible for God to lie. But we also see that God allows Satan to deceive and has even sent a lying spirit to deceive king Ahab in the Old Testament. We don’t know why this is but, we have faith that there is a greater spiritual battle going on and God is in charge of that army.
          Some sects of Christianity would like to believe that the Jews will always have a “special arrangement” with God if they try to enter Heaven without faith in Jesus Christ. Other Christians insist that there is no special arrangement with God.

          Breaking the legs of a person is thought to be a way to hasten the death of the one being crucified. John the Baptist called Jesus, ” the Lamb of God” and as such, breaking the legs or sacrificing a damaged animal in the Old sacrificial system would mean the sacrifice would not be accepted. For the Christian, it is critical to see Jesus as the last sacrifice of the old system.

          John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. KJV

          1. “Danny Newton says: The Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah, mostly because they expected a better world at his coming. It got worse, especially if you were besieged at Masada. They also closed their Cannon or Old Testament about 90 AD to prevent anything being added to the Old Testament.”

            The point of that Jew is very interesting: once Christians accused God of fooling Jews, he must be able to fool the same Christian as well, even with more bigger deceit. There’s a pattern of deceit there. If Christian Gods conducted and circulated such a “2,000-year lie” to fool the Jews for so long, then, there’s no guarantee that he will not fool the Trinitarians this time.
            Read what Mt 27:64 says “so the last error shall be worse than the first”. *If* God had made a mistake for 2,000 years on rejection of human sacrifice, then he must need a *much more bigger error* to conceal it.

            “God created us in his image, thus we are spiritual beings because God is Spirit.”

            There’s no guarantee that Trinitarian gods will not fool the Trinitarians this time. Once you doubt the OT Bible, there’s no guarantee the NT Bible is not more doubtful either.

            “We naturally seek out the supernatural and a relationship with the Almighty. All of this takes place on a battlefield of ideas. Satan is loose on the earth and causing enough doubt that the only path to God is through faith. Study helps but we will never have enough knowledge to enter into certainty via philosophy alone. The Holy Spirit convicts us of our sin and our inability to keep the law. We enter into the presence of God via his mercy and grace only. Christians believe via Hebrews 6:18 that it is impossible for God to lie. But we also see that God allows Satan to deceive and has even sent a lying spirit to deceive king Ahab in the Old Testament. We don’t know why this is but, we have faith that there is a greater spiritual battle going on and God is in charge of that army.”

            If that were true, the Bible’s Gods would not made the human sacrifice a big sin for so long.
            There’s a pattern of deceit there.

            “Some sects of Christianity would like to believe that the Jews will always have a “special arrangement” with God if they try to enter Heaven without faith in Jesus Christ. Other Christians insist that there is no special arrangement with God.”

            A bigger errors with a bigger uncertainty of salvation.
            Once the Bible’s Gods fooled the Jews, they need another round of fooling to cover up it.

            “Breaking the legs of a person is thought to be a way to hasten the death of the one being crucified. John the Baptist called Jesus, ” the Lamb of God” and as such, breaking the legs or sacrificing a damaged animal in the Old sacrificial system would mean the sacrifice would not be accepted. For the Christian, it is critical to see Jesus as the last sacrifice of the old system. John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. KJV”

            Here is Exodus 101.
            Passover Lamb does not forgive Jews, it just kills the innocent child, thus it has an infanticide hint. So is Jesus a child-killer? no.
            Passover Lamb is punitive, just like the punitive ways using the frogs, the locusts, the blood, so is Jesus a punitive frog? no.

        2. I think Abbas should be looking over his shoulder since he seems to be copying techniques that Christians often use to defend their beliefs. I hope the Islamic Dawah Team only scolds him. The technique is using scripture to prove scripture. Abbas settles the question of “Allah prays” by going to other scripture which supports that Allah has no peer, there for the conclusion is not comfortable with the Qur’an as a whole. It is clever because it takes the spotlight off of the apparent mistakes. Modern translations into English take away the problem by making it comfortable with Islamic doctrine but the troubling phrases, when rendered in a word for word translation, can cause a moment of discomfort because so much of the Qur’an is borrowed from older writings that already existed hundreds of years prior to the canonization by Uthman. In polytheistic religions, gods prayed to each other.
          Christians have exposed a lot of corruption in their own scriptures by finding older and older copies of the New Testament books. We can see where the Catholic Church and well meaning scribes have added phrases that were not originally there. There are a few places where the Catholic Church has tried to reinforce the act of baptism as being critical to salvation when it was not in the original or older copies. But, I still use the “corrupted” King James Version because the overall message has not been changed and the essentials of salvation are still the same.

          1. I may add other technique.
            Quran vis a vis the Bible on “Pray” that can be used in hyperbolic sense:
            – God uses the hyperbolic “I pray you” to inhabitants of Jerusalem and Judeans:
            Mal 1:9
            And now, *I pray you*, beseech God that he will be gracious unto us: this hath been by your means: will he regard your persons? saith the LORD of hosts.

            Isa 5
            3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, *I pray you*, betwixt me and my vineyard.7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.

            – Angel uses a hyperbolic “I pray thee” to Manoah’s wife:
            Jud 13
            3 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son.4 Now therefore beware, *I pray thee*, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing:

        3. All of the Christians I know believe this means that there was fear that Jesus would actually rise and the problems that Jesus was causing would be compounded if there was deception or false claims that Jesus survived crucifixion. The killing of Jesus was to end two “frauds” The first was that He was the Son of God and the second was that He would rise on the third day. Without making sure there was a secure tomb, the second “fraud” or prophecy would be more difficult to manage among people who failed to perceive Jesus as the Son of God. Notice that in the Kingdom of Darkness this was a political killing to benefit the government of Rome and the local Jewish priesthood who failed to recognize the Messiah. In the Kingdom of Light, this was a last and final sacrifice that made it possible for mankind to have peace with God.

          1. “Danny Newton says: All of the Christians I know believe this means that there was fear that Jesus would actually rise and the problems that Jesus was causing would be compounded if there was deception or false claims that Jesus survived crucifixion.”

            Lazarus, daughter of Jairus, the ancient saints were all resurrected. Jews just go on doing business as usual. There’s no fear or political threats from those resurrected ones. Moreover, Jesus doesn’t lead a military resistance.
            Both the Romans and the Jews can do nothing at all if Jesus can’t be killed. Thus, a previous error and last error Jews concerned about must be theological ones: there’s no guarantee for such a “Final sacrifice” this time if the same God had happened to previously fool the Jews with such a “2,000-year lie” for so long time.

            “The killing of Jesus was to end two “frauds” The first was that He was the Son of God and the second was that He would rise on the third day.”

            Exactly, for the Jews it is not the error at all.
            For the Jews, it is a right thing to do.
            Thus, Mt 27:64 “so the last error shall be worse than the first” is absurd if it is about the killing.

            “Without making sure there was a secure tomb, the second “fraud” or prophecy would be more difficult to manage among people who failed to perceive Jesus as the Son of God.”

            C’mon. If Jesus really can’t be killed, there would be no use to “secure” his tomb.
            I think the Jews just have a concern about a crime of grave robbers.

            “Notice that in the Kingdom of Darkness this was a political killing to benefit the government of Rome and the local Jewish priesthood who failed to recognize the Messiah.”

            The Jews succeed to prove that Jesus is dead.

            “In the Kingdom of Light, this was a last and final sacrifice that made it possible for mankind to have peace with God.”

            In fact, that typical Trinitarian argument is most weakest of all. That’s why that Jew on the website explains with a reasoning that there’s no guarantee for such a “Final sacrifice” this time if the same God had happened to previously fool the Jews with such a “2,000-year lie” for so long time.
            An error in which God who had fooled the Jews for long time must need another, more bigger, more spectacular error to fool the Trinitarians this time.

  11. “Anonymous says: God can make a tip of the spear felt like a smooth velvet.”

    Indeed.
    Additionally, Jesus happened to correlate one’s inability to cure and do wonders with one’s “less faith” (doubts).
    Jesus experienced “less faith” (doubtfulness) many times:
    – Jesus has a little faith when he still needs the mud and water of Siloam to heal a blind man.
    – Jesus has a little faith when he fails to heal many sick men inside of his own town, so that he gets dishonored in his town.
    – Jesus has little faith when he doesn’t know when the Hour will be.
    – When Jesus was on the cross, apparently he was inflicted by a tremendous doubts that gives him a little faith. Jesus forgets his own saying: what is more *easier* than saying “thy faith forgiven thou” when he cannot forgive sins any longer:
    Lk 5:23
    Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise up and walk?
    Mk 2:9
    Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?

    Versus: It is not easy. Jesus feels a little faith.

    Lk 23:34
    Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

    1. [email protected]:
      When Jesus was on the cross, apparently he was inflicted by a tremendous doubts that gives him a little faith. Jesus forgets his own saying: what is more *easier* than saying “thy faith forgiven thou” when he cannot forgive sins any longer:

      D. Newton: I assume you were speaking hypothetically. Otherwise, the Dawah Team might have to come to your house and re-teach you that you are suppose to believe that Jesus was not crucified nor did he die. Are you giving too much weight to Sura 3:55? I thought Jesus was your Prophet. And you are saying he had little faith? What other faults did Jesus the Prophet have? I thought Jesus, the Muslim, had a victorious ministry according to the Qur’an.

      I still have not found the explanation of how a peaceful Muslim can pay Zakat and have a clear conscience since a portion of it goes to Jihad. Are you still working on that?

      1. Danny Newton says: I assume you were speaking hypothetically. Otherwise, the Dawah Team might have to come to your house and re-teach you that you are suppose to believe that Jesus was not crucified nor did he die.”

        Jesus with a little faith is Jesus of the Bible.
        Jesus of the strong faith is Islamic Jesus.

        “Are you giving too much weight to Sura 3:55? I thought Jesus was your Prophet.”

        Only Monotheist side of Jesus the Bible is true in prophetic sense.
        The statement “Bible is corrupt” is established by the Biblical scholars, even by KJV Onlyists.

        “And you are saying he had little faith?”

        Yes, it is because Jesus in the Bible shows that.
        Jesus loses his Faith entirely on the cross, so that he is incapable of even saying what he once termed as “easier” thing, i.e. “thy faith forgiven thee”.
        Jesus loses much of his Faith when he was not able to cure his townsfolk.
        Jesus loses much of his Faith when he needs pool of Siloam to cure a blindness.
        Jesus loses his Faith entirely when he can’t ensure the exact day when the Hour will be.

        “What other faults did Jesus the Prophet have?”

        Every sons of Adam cannot escape from a portion of Zina.
        Jesus in the Bible enjoyed to be touched and rubbed by a woman, didn’t he?

        “I thought Jesus, the Muslim, had a victorious ministry according to the Qur’an.”

        Qur’an just gives the prophesy of victory to his “followers”, namely the Cave Sleepers whom God protected thru a hibernation from the cruel Trinitarian regimes.
        But for his personal victory, his victory will occur later in the 2nd Coming.

        “I still have not found the explanation of how a peaceful Muslim can pay Zakat and have a clear conscience since a portion of it goes to Jihad. Are you still working on that?”

        Jihad is not Zionism.
        Mimicking what Zionists do, such as killing the Arab children and suicide ala Samson, is as following Zionism.

        1. [email protected] :
          Jesus with a little faith is Jesus of the Bible.
          Jesus of the strong faith is Islamic Jesus.

          As brother Jay Smith would say, ” You have the wrong Jesus… Come home to the true Jesus.”

        2. [email protected]
          Every sons of Adam cannot escape from a portion of Zina.
          Jesus in the Bible enjoyed to be touched and rubbed by a woman, didn’t he?

          D. Newton: Christians do not believe that Jesus was a Son of Adam. The idea that Jesus was not a sinner even though he came as a man is critical to the perception that only Jesus could be the perfect sacrifice for all sin…even yours. Unfortunately Jesus only identifies himself as a prophet.( Sura 19:30) But the belief that Mary or Miriam was a virgin should tell you that this was a special birth or event. Christians see Jesus as an intercessor who marks all of our debts to God “paid in full” so that we may have eternal relationship with Eternal God.

          1. “Danny Newton says: Christians do not believe that Jesus was a Son of Adam.”

            I may presume that you are not a mainstream Trinitarian, Danny. Perhaps you are an oneness Pentecostal. You apparently reject Jesus’ Dualism, that is, he is a full man along with another full idolatrous nature.

            “The idea that Jesus was not a sinner even though he came as a man is critical to the perception that only Jesus could be the perfect sacrifice for all sin…even yours.”

            You can say it thousand times, but the Gospel’s fact is unavoidable, that Jesus of the Bible gets tainted by such a “rubbing Zina” by a woman who is not his wife.
            Jesus of the Bible was touched and rubbed by a woman. Jesus of the Bible fails to cope with a temptation of Zina.

            “Unfortunately Jesus only identifies himself as a prophet.( Sura 19:30) But the belief that Mary or Miriam was a virgin should tell you that this was a special birth or event.”

            Sin is something that comes “after” the birth, after temptation.
            The birth of Eve was also special, from Adam’s rib, but then she commits a sin afterward by eating the forbidden fruits.
            If sin can’t come thru the birth, it comes thru temptations. Jesus of the Bible fails in Zina.

            “Christians see Jesus as an intercessor who marks all of our debts to God “paid in full” so that we may have eternal relationship with Eternal God.”

            It’s just your hypothetical wishing, but clearly your Gods have a lower standard of intercession, or perhaps God forgives Jesus’ sin of Zina?
            For us Moslems, there’s a fact from Gospels that Jesus of the Bible commits sin of the rubbing Zina with a woman who is not his wife.

        3. In a more deeper analysis, actually Jesus fails to perform many bigger things:

          1. Jesus can’t answer a question (or challenge) of Philip to show the Father.
          Philip asks Jesus to show him the Father, and Jesus fails him:
          Jn 14:8
          Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

          As we know, the Father was seen numerous times in the Bible:
          Daniel sees the Father in a likeness of the person with the white hair. Do you think Jesus has the woolen hair? No.
          Dan 7:9
          I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
          Ezekiel sees the Father in likeness of amber:
          Ezek 1:27
          And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.

          2. Jesus cannot and fails to fulfill his promise to the Jews that he would have come again to them, alive, like Jonas, after 3rd day.
          Mt 27:63
          Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
          Versus:
          Mt 12:40
          For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

          3. Jesus can’t convince Peter to kill the animals of a heavenly zoo which Jesus sends down especially to him. Jesus fails even after imploring Peter THREE TIMES.
          Acts 10 is perhaps the most “silliest” chapter in the NT Bible. What’s the purpose to offer the “heavenly zoo” to Peter at time when he is fasting? Is Peter tempted by Jesus?
          Is Peter correct that the Jewish Kosher is still binding for Christians?

          Worse, why does Jesus feel the need to ask Peter to “kill” the beasts in heavenly zoo?

          Why don’t the angels help slaughter them for Peter anyway?
          And the most worst and silliest thing of all is, Jesus got dumped by Peter’s rejections thrice….and, nothing happens.
          Acts 10
          14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
          Versus:
          Mk 7:15
          There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

          1. “Anonymous says: Acts 10 is perhaps the most “silliest” chapter in the NT Bible. What’s the purpose to offer the “heavenly zoo” to Peter at time when he is fasting? Is Peter tempted by Jesus?”

            Yes, it proves that Jesus is not God.
            Since Peter responds in Acts 10: 14 that what is offered for him is “unclean animal”, there’s certainty that Jesus tempted Peter to violate the Kosher. Thus Jesus can’t be God.
            Jas 1:13
            Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
            Versus:
            Acts 10:14
            But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

            Fortunately, Peter does not give in to Jesus’ temptation. Peter knew that God would not contradict His Law, let alone to abolish the Law (of Kosher meats).
            Apparently, Peter also learns from a bad story in the Book of Jeremiah about the Jews vs. Rechabites who refused to taste the wine Jeremiah tempted them with.
            Jeremiah compares the obedience of Rechabites with the violations of Law by sinful Jews (Jer 35:1-19). As Rechabites didn’t give into the temptation of Jeremiah, neither did Peter fall into Jesus’ temptation.
            In a nutshell, Acts 10:14 shows how Jesus tempts Peter with unclean meats, and it proves Jesus is not God.

  12. [email protected] :
    Qur’an just gives the prophesy of victory to his “followers”, namely the Cave Sleepers whom God protected thru a hibernation from the cruel Trinitarian regimes.
    But for his personal victory, his victory will occur later in the 2nd Coming.

    D. Newton:
    Your Cave Sleepers are just an appropriation of prior writings that were rejected is reliable scripture long before the Qur’an was sent down to Muhammed. You are probably shocking some Christians by confirming that there will be a Second Coming of Jesus. I don’t think Jesus will be breaking the Cross or killing the pig but I am pretty sure the Jizya will be ended at the Second Coming of Jesus.

    1. “Danny Newton says: Your Cave Sleepers are just an appropriation of prior writings that were rejected is reliable scripture long before the Qur’an was sent down to Muhammed.”

      Get your statement correct.
      The Modern Historical scholars are on our Islamic side: they do verify that the story describes an actual historical event of seven young men appearing in the midst of the Ephesians.
      http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2009/10/historicity-of-seven-sleepers-of.html
      In the light of the archaeological evidence it now seems incontestable that about the middle of the fifth century seven young Ephesians really believed or tried to make others believe that they had been persecuted at the time of Decius, and that a high ecclesiastical dignitary, in a kind of enthusiastic self-deception, took their strange affirmation for granted, all the more providing him with the weapons which he needed for refuting certain heretics and making orthodoxy triumph.”[5]
      Conclusion
      Nowadays it is proved, as Honigmann stated, that the basis for the story is a well attested historical fact. Indeed, F. Miltner, who was in charge of excavations undertaken at Ephesus in 1926 by the Austrian Archaeological Institute found reason to believe that the church he uncovered was built at about the middle of the fifth century. This church was found at the traditional site ascribed to it in ancient Ephesus. Textual criticism also led scholars to certain conclusions which seem to confirm the results attained by the archaeological discoveries. Though archaeology and textual criticism cannot verify the miracle behind the tale, they do verify that the tale does describe an actual historical event of seven young men appearing in the midst of the Ephesians and believed to be the source of a great miracle which confirmed for all the resurrection of the dead.
      5. Ernest Honigmann, “Stephen of Ephesus (April 15, 448 – October 29, 451) and the Legend of the Seven Sleepers” Patristic Studies. Studi e testi, 173 (1953) pp. 125-168.

      1. [email protected] says:
        23 December 2018 at 9:03 am
        “Danny Newton says: Your Cave Sleepers are just an appropriation of prior writings that were rejected is reliable scripture long before the Qur’an was sent down to Muhammed.”

        Get your statement correct.
        The Modern Historical scholars are on our Islamic side: they do verify that the story describes an actual historical event of seven young men appearing in the midst of the Ephesians.

        Danny Newton: To the Christian, the prophecy in the Old Testament gives confirmation to the story of the death of Jesus. I don’t see anything in the Bible about people avoiding persecution by hibernation. The Bible tells Christians to prepare and expect persecution. If people were regularly surviving entombment in caves, I would have to take a second look at it and also it would make the swoon theory look more plausible. I think the world record for a person being in a coma is 42 years, but they were under constant medical supervision versus the Sleepers who were under constant neglect for differing periods of time two to 7 times longer than the current world record. I think the reluctance of the church to accept this story was that if people could actually hibernate for such long periods of time, it would take away from the miracle of the Resurrection. The experience of astronauts who have been in space for long periods of time is that without exercise, they are not going anywhere except on a stretcher. But, let’s say that it was a miracle, the Gospel would not benefit from it, so the natural reaction for the Christian is to suspect the works of the Devil.
        If this were some kind of suspended animation, it must have extended to their clothing too. A cave is not the ideal location for preservation of anything. After 300 years of isolation, I would expect a person to detect some kind of accent or variation of vocabulary. If they were maintained alive, why didn’t anyone notice that their hair and fingernails had grown? If you tried living in a cave at 55 degrees Fahrenheit, your body would have to be prevented from trying to maintain 98.6 degrees Fahrenheit. That would take stored energy in the form of food, fat and muscle.
        There is also the economic problem. You have fabricated all of these stories, took days and days to write them down and shopped them around to the local churches and nobody wants to by them except as fanciful stories. If they could have joined the cannon of the New Testament, then they would be more than worth their weight in gold. Finding no takers, the only thing you can do to try and break even is to look for some Arab story teller in a camel caravan headed toward Petra or Mecca or somewhere in Sham or Arabia and unload it on him.

        1. “Danny Newton says: To the Christian, the prophecy in the Old Testament gives confirmation to the story of the death of Jesus.”

          Indeed, Allah had firstly intended to emphasize it to the Monotheists that Jesus is dead, he is not God, he is like statue, just as Mary’s statue, thus the Christian world has Ebionites and Arians.
          Dead god is a stupid god.
          Dead god is as low as statue.

          “I don’t see anything in the Bible about people avoiding persecution by hibernation.”

          Elijah and the sons of Prophets sought refuge to caves.
          1Ki 18:13
          Was it not told my lord what I did when Jezebel slew the prophets of the LORD, how I hid an hundred men of the LORD’S prophets by fifty in a cave, and fed them with bread and water?

          “The Bible tells Christians to prepare and expect persecution.”

          No, Jesus is not silly, not suicidal, not genocidal, he orders Christians to flee to mountain if a persecution reaches a level of “Tribulation” in their subjective assessment.
          Mt 24:16
          Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

          “If people were regularly surviving entombment in caves, I would have to take a second look at it and also it would make the swoon theory look more plausible.”

          Swoon Theory is a weird too-late rescue. Since Jesus was already arrested and tortured, why would God save him with a swooning scenario?
          Not effective.
          Sleepers were saved by God into a cave without ever getting captured.

          “I think the world record for a person being in a coma is 42 years, but they were under constant medical supervision versus the Sleepers who were under constant neglect for differing periods of time two to 7 times longer than the current world record.”

          It is more about a long “Suspended Animation” for the healthy ones.
          They were NOT in coma nor in a poor health.
          Their hair and fingernails had not grown.
          Their clothes remained intact.

          “I think the reluctance of the church to accept this story was that if people could actually hibernate for such long periods of time, it would take away from the miracle of the Resurrection.”

          Catholics do not dismiss the story of Cave Sleepers. Orthodox churches commemorate those men twice a year. Only Protestants oppose it later after 1,200 years, or after 1,000 years of Islam.
          What took them so long? Weird?Apparently the Protestants experienced a Zombiefication for 1,200 years.
          For the Ebionites and Arians in early Christianity, the event just conveys a first-thing-first message that the belief of resurrection is totally useless if you believe in the idolatry of “Dead God”.
          Dead men can be resurrected by the works of devils via witches. The Bible acknowledges the evil power of “Necromancers” and witches.

          “The experience of astronauts who have been in space for long periods of time is that without exercise, they are not going anywhere except on a stretcher.”

          Astronauts don’t sleep all the time up there.

          “But, let’s say that it was a miracle, the Gospel would not benefit from it, so the natural reaction for the Christian is to suspect the works of the Devil.”

          Believing in a Dead God is a far more greater work of devils.
          Catholics do not dismiss the story of Cave Sleepers. Orthodox churches commemorate those men twice a year. Only Protestants oppose it later after 1,200 years, or almost 1,000 years after Islam.
          Weird?
          What took them so long?

          “If this were some kind of suspended animation, it must have extended to their clothing too.”

          Indeed. Not a problem.

          “A cave is not the ideal location for preservation of anything.”

          Yes it is.

          “After 300 years of isolation, I would expect a person to detect some kind of accent or variation of vocabulary.”

          Indeed.

          “If they were maintained alive, why didn’t anyone notice that their hair and fingernails had grown?”

          It is more about a long “Suspended Animation” for the healthy ones.

          “If you tried living in a cave at 55 degrees Fahrenheit, your body would have to be prevented from trying to maintain 98.6 degrees Fahrenheit.”

          Such a “Suspended Animation” does not get any intervention from whatever changes outside.

          “That would take stored energy in the form of food, fat and muscle.”

          That’s coma, it is rather “Suspended Animation”.

          “There is also the economic problem. You have fabricated all of these stories, took days and days to write them down and shopped them around to the local churches and nobody wants to by them except as fanciful stories.”

          Catholics do not dismiss the story of Cave Sleepers. Orthodox churches commemorate those men twice a year. Only Protestants oppose it later after 1,200 years, or almost 1,000 years after Islam.
          Weird?
          What took them so long?

          “If they could have joined the cannon of the New Testament, then they would be more than worth their weight in gold.”

          All Christians had accepted the validity of Cave Sleepers, even during the time of Qur’anic Sura 18th, even after 1,000 years afterward. Suddenly, some stupid Protestants oppose it later after 1,200 years.

          “Finding no takers, the only thing you can do to try and break even is to look for some Arab story teller in a camel caravan headed toward Petra or Mecca or somewhere in Sham or Arabia and unload it on him.”

          No takers, eh?
          Apparently the Protestants experienced a Zombiefication for 1,200 years.

          1. [email protected] says:
            1 January 2019 at 7:51 am

            All Christians had accepted the validity of Cave Sleepers, even during the time of Qur’anic Sura 18th, even after 1,000 years afterward. Suddenly, some stupid Protestants oppose it later after 1,200 years.

            Danny Newton: I think the problem with accepting this is that it was reported that the Seven Sleepers “went to sleep in the Lord,” which is an allusion to being dead before they were reported as awakened and walking around. They again died and were buried. These sleepers would then die twice before seeing the Day of Judgement. Christians believe in the resurrection of Jesus because He uses that resurrected body to prove to people of the time that He is a part of the Trinity. It is harder to think a mere man could do such a thing even though similar stories go back to Aristotle. Jesus died to prove he could overcome Death. The Bible says no one has a second death except in the Lake of Fire. Apparently, the Catholic Church eventually and belatedly got the idea that the Sleepers had died too many times after they, the Catholics, made them saints! This interpretation is not available to the Muslim because they can only see the Seven Sleepers as dying once.

            Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

            This story could never become a part of the tradition of the Qur’an by its inclusion into the Ingil because it never was in the Ingil. I have difficulty conjuring up an excuse for it to be in the Qur’an because I fail to see the what theological purpose it serves. These Seven Sleepers represent either black magic, deception or a resurrection that seems to support no doctrine of Islam. Were these men Muslims? Did this story happen in the time of Ignorance? How can their works be rewarded by Allah? Did they circle the Kabbah and go on Hajj? If they are in Paradise, on which of the hundred levels would they be found? Did they prostate, pray five times a day and do wudu? If they are in Paradise with so little effort, someone might conclude that Allah is not just. Did Allah send them to the Fire because they caused a great blooming of Faith in Jesus Christ? The one hundredth attribute(name) of Allah must refer to his sense of humor.

  13. [email protected] says: I have once come across the website somewhere in which there’s a debate among Unitarian, Jew and some Trinitarian. A Jew questions the Trinitarians and Moslem of an “error” in the saying of Mt 27:64 “so the last error shall be worse than the first”.”

    Similarly, I remember that some years or months ago I read something from you or another Muslim somewhere on Internet, that Jesus actually reveals a “hint” of the truth that we almost overlooked, i.e. he was not crucified. The argument comes from Matthew 25:31-46.
    I think it remains to be the most potent argument against crucifixion.

    So far, as far as I know, it is undeniable by any staunch Trinitarian:

    According to the words of Jesus himself, nobody ever sees Jesus sick, naked, hungry, and thirsty, hence the crucifixion doesn’t happen on Jesus:
    Mt 25
    34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

    Everyone, either good sheep and sinful goats will deny that Jesus was crucified (naked, sick, hungry, thirsty). Even Jesus will deny that silly “cruci-fiction” on himself:
    – Sheep.
    Mt 25
    37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

    – Goats:
    Mt 25:44
    Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

    Hey, That’s a good irrefutable argument coming directly from the mouth of Jesus.
    That’s what we are looking for to refute the Crucifixion.
    Everyone will be so Islamic by denying crucifixion.

    Yeah, that’s a rare finding that confirms Islamic version.
    Had Jesus’ crucifixion taken place, nobody would ask with a naivety “when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?” while they have a scene of crucifixion annually on the so-called Good Friday.

    I imagine Jesus would get angry by saying: Dudes, don’t ye see me naked and thirsty, nailed helplessly on that silly wooden cross?
    I presume that man “doubting Thomas” will be the loudest one of all when chanting “Cruci-fiction”.

    I presume that both sheep and goats are not Christians, but good Muslims and bad Muslims.
    That’s why they ask: “when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?”
    And you know what? where are those Christians? In the Hell already.
    Why?
    Because, let alone to ask about his nakedness (which Jesus shall deny), those Christians claim wrongly to have seen Jesus naked, hungry and suffer a lot.

    Now, the fact is: whether Jesus will lie to them by rejecting his experience that he is naked, thirsty, and hungry on the wooden cross, or otherwise:
    that the entire Christians, Paul, Popes, etc (also both sheep and goats) will lie to Jesus by stating that they never see Jesus naked, thirsty, and hungry on the wooden cross.

    Difference with Hadith:
    (i) In Hadith, Allah is not found naked.
    But in Gospel, Jesus is found naked like a silly loser, but he himself (also his followers especially Paul, and his rejectors, especially Pilate, Herod, High Priests and the Jews) denies to have seen him naked on the cross. Thus, crucifixion is a cruci-fiction.

    (ii) In Hadith, Allah is not imprisoned.
    But in Gospel, Jesus is found in prison like a loser, but he himself (also his followers especially Paul, and his rejectors, especially Pilate, Herod, High Priests and the Jews) denies to have let him succumbed in prison in the trial. Thus, crucifixion is a cruci-fiction.

    Maybe Trinitarian Polemicists should find another job as comedians instead.
    Their Trinitarian theology was written by a bunch of lousy amateurish comedians after all.
    Well, is it another one of the Trintarian polemicists’ blunder of the day, or a joke of the day? Why do we keep seeing it come always from the Trinitarians? What an amateurish clown.

    1. Anonymous:
      (ii) In Hadith, Allah is not imprisoned.
      But in Gospel, Jesus is found in prison like a loser, but he himself (also his followers especially Paul, and his rejectors, especially Pilate, Herod, High Priests and the Jews) denies to have let him succumbed in prison in the trial. Thus, crucifixion is a cruci-fiction.

      Danny Newton: I don’t remember Jesus being in prison but the Disciples were placed in prison. Maybe it was Isa who was placed in prison?

      1. “Danny Newton says: Danny Newton: I don’t remember Jesus being in prison but the Disciples were placed in prison. Maybe it was Isa who was placed in prison?”

        Jesus is one of prisoners of Pilate:
        Mk 15:6
        Now at that feast he released unto them one prisoner, whomsoever they desired.9 But Pilate answered them, saying, Will ye that I release unto you the King of the Jews?

        Other prison Jesus went to.
        1Pet 3:19
        By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

        1. The events of His crucifixion went so quickly, Jesus did not suffer imprisonment as John the Baptist or the other disciples. He was detained but, now I see why you insist that He was “imprisoned.”

  14. A gem of Unitarian on John 8:58.

    Why before “Abraham”, not before Adam or the more older Prophets?

    Jewish scholars quickly noted that there’s one “intriguing” point when Jesus refers only to Abraham when employing the Jewish divine name “I AM” in the timeline of Moses. Please notice, how Jews in John 8:53-58 talk about “Prophets” generally, expecting Jesus to understand the lists of Prophets since the Antediluvian days to the birth of Abraham, such as:
    -Enoch (whom God took to Heaven alive),
    -Noah (righteous man with God),
    -High Priest Melchisedec.
    Jn 8
    52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the Prophets (Hoi Profhetai) ; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the Prophets (Hoi Profhetai) are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

    At most, Abraham feels glad when seeing Jesus at time when God (Adonay) sits at Abraham’s Right Hand (Psalms 110:5), as in Jewish sources.
    Abraham’s seat is more “higher” the Messiah’s, and interestingly it is also correlating with a crucial verse Psalms 110:5 where Jehovah is described as “The LORD (Adonay) at thy (Abraham’s) right hand”, in a very “sentimental” story how Jehovah consoles Abraham, as in Midrash on Psalms, Tehillim.
    Midrash Tehillim.
    R. Yudan said in the name of R. Hama: In the time-to-come, when the Holy One, blessed be He, seats the lord Messiah at His right hand, as is said: The LORD (Adonay) saith unto my lord (adoni): Sit thou at My right hand (Ps. 110:1), and seats Abraham at His LEFT, Abraham’s face will pale, and he will say to the Lord: My son’s son sits at the right, and I at the LEFT. Thereupon the Holy One, blessed be He, will comfort Abraham, saying: Thy son’s son is at My right, but I, in a manner of speaking, am at thy right: The LORD (Adonay) is at thy (Abraham’s) right hand (Ps. 110:5).
    Also in Yalqut Shimoni, Jehovah assures Abraham that Abraham’s seat at the left hand of Jehovah is more higher than the seat at his right hand:
    Yalqut Shimoni Ps. 110, Nedarim 32b and Sanhedrin 108b.
    Rabbi Yodan says in Rabbi Bar Haninan’s name that: The Holy One will set the coming Messiah-King at his RIGHT hand and Abraham at his LEFT, and so Abraham’s face will become white with envy, and he will say: The son of my son sits on your right and I must sit on your LEFT? Then the Holy One will appease him by saying, Your son is on your right and I am on your right.

    Moreover, it is quite interesting how Jews do not get angry at all when Jesus uses the great name “I AM” elsewhere to Jews in John 8 (“i am he” allusion to Deut 23:39), and John 10 (“i am good shepherd”, allusion to Psalam 23:1):
    Jn 8:12
    Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world:
    Jn 8:24
    I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
    Jn 10:11
    I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

  15. The Bible has many theological traps, hidden snares, and linguistic holes that can mislead you if you don’t have a proper knowledge of Jewish Monotheism.

    Without a correct Jewish context, Isaiah is the great “I AM” from before the world began.
    In Trinitarian reading, Isaiah 48:16 could make Isaiah a Pre-existent deity.
    The context of Isaiah 48:16 is similar with that of John 17:5, even more “older” than John 8:58.
    Isa 48:16
    Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there I AM, and now the Lord GOD and his Spirit hath sent me.

  16. Both the Jewish and the Septuagint scholars also noticed a far more subtle textual corruption, how both the Septuagint and Gospel of Luke (such as in KJV) omit and add several words, as free as its writer desires.
    In Septuagint:
    – Omitting the word “the LORD” in Hebrew, being substituted with “he” in Septuagint.
    – Adding a new Greek phrase in Septuagint: “kai typhlois anablepsin” (and recovering of sight to the blind) which is not existing in Hebrew.
    In Luke, there are three textual corruptions:
    – Keeping a corrupt deletion of “the LORD” with “he” replacement in Septuagint.
    – Keeping a corrupt Greek addition of Septuagint, which is not existing in Hebrew: “typhlois anablepsin” (and recovering of sight to the blind).
    – Adding a new Greek phrase, which is not existing in Septuagint, in order to restore the Hebrew version: “aposteilai tethrausmenous en aphesei” (to set at liberty them that are bruised).

    Thus, there are three different verses as comparison (with * as addition in Septuagint, ** as addition in Luke):
    Hebrew 61:1. The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
    Isa 61:1 Lxx: pneuma kuriou ep eme ou eneken echrisen me euangelizesthai ptochois, apestalken me iasasthai tous suntetrimmenous ten kardian, keruxai aichmalotois aphesin, (*kai tuphlois anablepsin = and recovering of sight to the blind).
    Luke 4:18. pneuma kuriou ep eme ou eneken echrisen me euangelizesthai ptochois, apestalken me iasasthai tous suntetrimmenous ten kardian, keruxai aichmalotois aphesin, (*kai tuphlois anablepsin), (**aposteilai tethrausmenous en aphesei = to set at liberty them that are bruised).

  17. Both the Jewish and the Septuagint scholars also noticed a far more subtle textual corruption, how both the Septuagint and Gospel of Luke (such as in KJV) omit and add several words, as free as its writer desires.
    In Septuagint:
    – Omitting the word “the LORD” in Hebrew, being recklessly substituted with “he” (referring to the Holy Spirit to be the sender of Jesus) in Septuagint.
    – Adding a new Greek phrase in Septuagint: “kai typhlois anablepsin” (and recovering of sight to the blind) which is not existing in Hebrew.
    In Luke, there are three textual corruptions:
    – Keeping a corrupt deletion of “the LORD” with “he” replacement in Septuagint.
    – Keeping a corrupt Greek addition of Septuagint, which is not existing in Hebrew: “typhlois anablepsin” (and recovering of sight to the blind).
    – Adding a new Greek phrase, which is not existing in Septuagint, in order to restore the Hebrew version: “aposteilai tethrausmenous en aphesei” (to set at liberty them that are bruised).

    Thus, there are three different verses as comparison (with * as addition in Septuagint, ** as addition in Luke):
    Hebrew 61:1. The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
    Isa 61:1 Lxx: pneuma kuriou ep eme ou eneken echrisen me euangelizesthai ptochois, apestalken me iasasthai tous suntetrimmenous ten kardian, keruxai aichmalotois aphesin, (*kai tuphlois anablepsin = and recovering of sight to the blind).
    Luke 4:18. pneuma kuriou ep eme ou eneken echrisen me euangelizesthai ptochois, apestalken me iasasthai tous suntetrimmenous ten kardian, keruxai aichmalotois aphesin, (*kai tuphlois anablepsin), (**aposteilai tethrausmenous en aphesei = to set at liberty them that are bruised).

  18. How Unitarians read John 1.
    The “Logos” in John 1:1 is God’s creative power of framing all creation’s physicals rather than a being or an entity existing pre-eternally with God. The Logos is inanimate thing which God puts in all creations, either good ones or evil ones. Hence, Jesus cannot be a framer in the body of Satan and devils, right?
    Heb 11:3
    Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

    But Jesus is a kind of the later “conscious Logos” apart from the original inanimate Logos. For comparison, Holy Spirit is a kind of “conscious spirit” of God apart from the later inanimate spirits of the living creations (of humans, angels, demons, even beasts).

    The inanimate Logos is called “A God” in John 1:1 just as a man’s own belly can be called “god”, along with the man-made graven images, statues and idols:
    Phil 3:19
    Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly,
    Isa 44:17
    And the residue thereof he maketh a god, even his graven image: he falleth down unto it, and worshippeth it, and prayeth unto it, and saith, Deliver me; for thou art my god.

    How to read John 1 ?
    Firstly, the Inanimate Logos is a plan, mind of God, worthy to be called “A God” (John 1:1 is similar to Phil 3:19), acting as the framer of the world.
    Secondly, before a small aspect of the inanimate Logos became a flesh (John 1:1-13), both the Jews and certain angels were already made as “sons of God” by a creative power of the inanimate Logos, because they believe in His (God’s) Name. It does not refer Jesus’ name.
    Thirdly, after the specific Logos became a flesh (John 1:14-18) thru Mary, now the Logos has two kinds: the inanimate one, and the fully conscious one as person, i.e. Jesus.

    Thus, in a nutshell, originally the inanimate Logos is a plan, mind of God, worthy to be called “A God” (John 1:1 is similar to Phil 3:19), as well as the sole framer of all creations without exception. But for the believers of God’s Name, the inanimate Logos has made them the “sons of God” (born not by blood, but of God’s will), even long time before the birth of Jesus.

    One conscious Logos (Jesus) is just a small partial aspect of the whole inanimate Logos who frames the world entirely.

  19. How do we know if Jesus is not the inanimate Logos?
    1. Light:
    The inanimate Logos lightens every man universally without exception.
    Jesus just lightens his followers selectively.

    – Logos, giving the light to all in the world thru life, wisdom, understanding.
    Jn 1:9
    That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
    Versus:
    – Jesus: giving the light only to his followers.
    Jn 8:12
    Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

    2. Pre-annunciation:
    Logos: making those holy angels and Jews who believe in God’s Name the “sons of God”.
    Jesus: still as a manna in Heaven.

    3. On the cross:
    Logos: maintaining the frame of Jesus’ dead body for three days.
    Jesus: being forsaken by God, descending to the abyss.

    4. After ascension:
    Logos: continuing to frame the world, both evil and good ones.
    Jesus: departing from the world.

  20. The Bible is not written for the teens and children, it is for the adults.
    That’s why children are not advised to write or memorise the Bible.
    Qur’an is memorised by children.
    Certain “emotional” illustration such as the lewdness explicit contents and mature contents in the Old Testament, as well as the exaggerating violence and blood floods (as in the Book of Revelation) is not suitable for children.

    The Bible chooses a style of narrative illustraton, and (as usual in narration) you need a dramatic story. Unfortunately, the most “exciting” kind of narratives for the adults is all thing involving a mature content and violence.
    Qur’an avoids this narrative style for a “greater good”, i.e. for children’s memory. Thus, Qur’an doesn’t tell the “exciting hot scenes”.

    The proper way Qur’an chooses to make it more familiar with the innocent children (because Qur’an relies so much on memory) is not a way of narrative which usually demands a “hot scene” (mature contents and violence) to attract the readers and listeners. Qur’an uses a way of “heroic” characters and “curious” objects, such as genies, nightingale birds, flying carpets, wandering king, spring of life, ants and their queen, honey bees, spiders, elephants, et cetera.

    When a Non-Moslem repents, his or her heart could return to purity as much as the children’s heart. Qur’an can be perceived more easier by a pure heart.

    When a Non-Moslem just wants to read Qur’an with a purpose to find “hot scenes”, like novels or magazines, he or she would quickly be made so bored by it.

    1. You missed the redemption thread that weaves its way from front to back. But, I agree, many things are disturbing.

  21. A simple gem of Unitarians: Does the Father need Jesus to appear? No.

    In the Old Testament as well as Acts and Revelation, we can deduce an understanding that the Father doesn’t need Jesus at all to represent his appearance.

    Several Jewish Prophets (Moses, Isaiah, Ezekiel and Daniel) see the Father’s body without seeing his face in the Old Testament, and Stephen and John see the Father’s body without seeing his face in the NT Bible.

    Exo 33:23
    And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

    Dan 7:9
    I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool:

    Acts 7:55
    But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

    Rev 4:3
    And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

  22. A Unitarian anti-duality gem:

    Does Jesus have a duality?
    No, unless each woman also had two natures “female” (body) and “male” (head).
    No, unless each man also had double male natures: “male” (body) and “another male Christ” (head)….So, man would have had two males, as Christ is a man.

    1Cor 11:3
    But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

  23. Unitarian gem:

    If Jesus were a “Express Image” of God in the OT Bible, why does he appear to Jews and the Patriarchs in a visible angel of Christophany rather than as a visible Theophany of the Father?

    There are many visible appearances (Theophany) of the Father, such as to Moses in Exod 33:23 and John in Rev 4:3), without needing Jesus.

    Theophany of the Father:
    Exo 33:23
    And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

    Theophany of the Father:
    Rev 4:3
    And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

  24. Unitarian refutation of Christophany: Where’s Jesus”

    In Micaiah’s vision, none sees Jesus around the throne, where’s his Christophany (angel or Son of God) that had appeared before to the Jews?
    Returning back into God’s bosom? Weird.
    2Chr 18
    18 Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left. 19 ….And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner.

  25. Unitarian gem against Christophany? Old habits die hard: Jesus became a smiting angel again?

    Apparently, after his ascension once again Jesus re-activates his Angel mode, just like in the past:
    Smiting angel (lethal):
    2Ki 19:35
    And it came to pass that night, that the angel of the LORD went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses.

    Acts 12:23
    And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.

    Poking angel (non lethal):
    Num 22:25
    And when the ass saw the angel of the LORD, she thrust herself unto the wall, and crushed Balaam’s foot against the wall: and he smote her again.

    Acts 12:7
    And, behold, the angel of the Lord came upon him, and a light shined in the prison: and he smote Peter on the side, and raised him up, saying, Arise up quickly. And his chains fell off from his hands.

  26. Unitarian gem on final transformation: Will the Trinitarians be the same image of lamb?

    “Same image” of the 7-horned 7-eyed lamb.
    2Cor 3:18
    But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the *same image* from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

    Becoming same lambs?
    Rev 5:6
    Stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

    Becoming same temples?
    Rev 21:22
    And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

  27. Where was Jesus in the heaven?
    In the Book of Daniel, it is illustrated how initially there’s no Jesus’ Christophany at the side of the Ancient of Days. Where’s Jesus anyway?
    Dan 7:9
    I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

    Later, Daniel doesn’t see the act of sending down a God’s Son into the world. Rather, Daniel just sees how a figure like the Son of Man comes closer up to the Ancient of Days.
    Dan 7:13
    I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

  28. Apparently, there’s a strong reason why Jews always doubted Jesus’ claim of being a “manna of heaven”, that is, there’s no clue from the Tanach that may indicate an act of sending a God’s special figure “down” to the world.

  29. Utilising a flawed Trinitarian logic on Moses vs. Plural Majestic.

    By mimicking a subjective claim “I am” in Jn 8:58 (and elsewhere) for Jesus’ divinity, the Jews can also utilise a similar claim that Moses “must have” been that God “Elohim” (twice in Exod 4:16, Exod 7:1) with whom Jehovah must converse for the creation of Adam by saying “Let Us make man Our image” in Gen 1:26.

    Since a divine title of Elohim (similar to a title “I am” for Jesus) is given for Moses, it means Moses must be existing before the world began, at least in the form of his (Moses’) “Theophany”. Consistency.

    Now, other argument:
    The only logical conclusion to understand the title “Elohim” (plural) for one man Moses is, it is a fact that Jehovah acknowledges fully the use of the Plural Majestic in the Torah for one man Moses when calling him “Elohim” twice (Exod 4:16, Exod 7:1) as well as the Plural Majestic for Jehovah himself (Gen 1:26).
    Exo 7:1
    And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
    Exo 4:16
    And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of a god.

    Pagans call a singular dead man’s spirit “gods” in plural (Elohim).
    1Sam 28:13
    And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods (Elohim) ascending out of the earth.

    Moreover, early Jews and Christians call a singular angel “gods” (Elohim) in plural sense as well.
    Jud 13
    21 But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD.22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God (Elohim).

    Heb 2:9
    But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
    Ps 8:5
    For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels (Elohim), and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

    1. [email protected] says: Utilising a flawed Trinitarian logic on Moses vs. Plural Majestic.
      By mimicking a subjective claim “I am” in Jn 8:58 (and elsewhere) for Jesus’ divinity, the Jews can also utilise a similar claim that Moses “must have” been that God “Elohim” (twice in Exod 4:16, Exod 7:1) with whom Jehovah must converse for the creation of Adam by saying “Let Us make man Our image” in Gen 1:26.
      Since a divine title of Elohim (similar to a title “I am” for Jesus) is given for Moses, it means Moses must be existing before the world began, at least in the form of his (Moses’) “Theophany”. Consistency.”

      Fascinating argument.
      Jews can exert same claim on Moses’ Theophany in the beginning:
      …..In the beginning was Moses, and Moses was with Elohim, and Moses was Elohim.

      1. Moses is the only human person whom God gives a title “Elohim” in the Torah. Logically, Adam must be made in the likeness and image of Moses’ Theophany as well.

        I don’t think God needs to wait 5,000 years since the days of Adam to give the title “Elohim” on a man, and to make known with whom God conversed for using someone’s image.
        If Moses is Elohim, Adam must be made on his image.

      2. To add insult to injury, some fantasizing Trinitarians claim further that the multipersonal God is manifested in the multipersonal Adam, hence (as they claim) Gen 1:27 depicts one man Adam to be “them”, male and female.
        Gen 1:27
        So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

        But, the questions and answers are:
        1. Does multipersonal Adam have two persons, due to being called “them”? No.
        The word “Them” is a figurative speech for Adam.
        Adam has only one person for himself. We have to carefully differentiate a real personage from a figurative speech.

        2. Does Adam’s begotten son a 2nd person of Adam? No.
        Adam breeds a unique begotten son (Seth) who has a very Adam’s image and likeness, but we don’t say that Seth is 2nd person of Adam.
        Gen 5:3
        And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth.

        3. Does multipersonal God have another female person within his male person? No.
        God does not have a feminine gender.

        4. Why does multipersonal God include Jesus, not Moses?
        Moses is a particular person whom God called “Elohim” twice.

  30. Christianity is founded on a circular belief.
    There are three lies of circular nonsense in the idea of Vicarious Atonement:
    1. First, Christians have to uphold Adam’s original sin (which they didn’t commit).
    2. Second, Christians take the blame for causing the crucifixion and for sharing the sin of killing Jesus on the cross (which they should not take).
    3. Third, Christians are damned forever and their sins would not be forgiven if they don’t agree with 1 and 2 (how could a bad consequence be produced from two false accusations).
    It is like a silly example: Jews choose a sin of crucifying Jesus. As consequence European Jews were killed in Holocaust. A Jew can be real Jew except he accepts that Holocaust is a just retaliation for having crucified Jesus.

  31. An open challenge in Heaven?

    Apparently, the Book of Revelation infers a story of disgraceful weakness that the Father holds a book, but keeps waiting as he cannot afford to open it, so that he needs Jesus to open it. It is said: “no one in heaven…was able to open the book” so neither 1st nor 3rd person have sufficient power to open it (because they lack a power of resurrection to do so).
    Rev 5
    1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?3 And no one in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

  32. In Rev 5:2 the challenge is for “who” in heaven and in elsewhere. So, if the Triune God has three “whos”, then both 1st who and 3rd who cannot afford to open a book.
    Isn’t it understandable if John “weeps” a lot of their weakness?

  33. Where does idea of celibacy in Christianity come from?
    1. Firstly, the OT and the NT Bible say: woman is source of the Original Sin.

    2. Jesus says: Whatever comes from from man, such as his sexual discharge, is a defilement.
    If woman has menses, man’s defilement is his sperm (even though he discharges it for his wife).

    3. Book of Revelation says: woman is a defilement.
    This filthy category goes more beyond a defilement by fluid coming out the body, rather woman herself is a defilement (perhaps it is because Eve is made of man’s rib).

    4. Jesus says: there’s no marriage in Heaven, the resurrected people will be like angels.
    Since depiction of angels in the Bible is a bunch of little boys and little girls, the life in Christian Paradise is more or less like a children playroom.

    5. Jesus says: little children are like angels who behold God’s face.
    Coincidentally, the Book of Revelation also showed an endless choir’s activities in Heaven, standing for singing days and nights without resting.
    Hence, the people’s job in Christian Paradise is more or less related to the choir of Mass (church’s Missa), i.e. altar boys and altar servers, to entertain the group of unknown attendants.

  34. Some nations like the title of “graveyard of empires”.
    Is it true that for all of those who take up swords will die by swords? Government shutdown, economic stagnancy, Border problems, and useless unworthy battles with unworthy nations abroad altogether drain the US a lot.

    nationalinterest.org/blog/skeptics/war-terrors-total-cost-5900000000000-41307
    The War on Terror’s Total Cost: $5,900,000,000,000
    y any reasonable estimate, the monetary and human costs of the U.S.-led war on terrorism has been considerable. To the political scientists at Brown University, the numbers have been astronomical. The Ivy League university’s Cost of War Project calculates that Washington will spend approximately $5.9 trillion between FY2001-FY2019, a pot of money that includes over $2 trillion in overseas contingency operations, $924 billion in homeland security spending, and $353 billion in medical and disability care for U.S. troops serving in overseas conflict zones. Add the cost of interest to borrowed money into the equation, and the American people will be paying back the debt for decades to come.
    The never-ending war on terrorism, of course, has also twisted the U.S. Armed Forces into a pretzel.

  35. War on Terror means being involved in so many useless wars in so many unworthy nations without a clear exit, without clear achievement, without clear timetable.

  36. Is Jesus making the duty of laws far more difficult, or more easier, for Christians to be saved? More difficult:

    Not only maintaining the negative Law of Decalogue, Jesus adds far more painful obligation to observe the positive laws, as the required goodness for salvation, even with penalty for failing to do so.

    Examples: Previously, believing in the Messiah and conducting the Baptism is not precondition of salvation. After the coming of Jesus, the belief in Messiah and baptism become obligatory.
    Previously, being humble is not counted as precondition of repentance, now after the time of Jesus the gesture of being humble becomes a precondition of being justified.
    Previously, charity is not counted as a way for salvation, but now after the time of Jesus the act of feeding the poor becomes a precondition to make salvation come into one’s house.
    Major changes:
    1. Doing a goodness for the poor is no longer an “optional” recommendation, but becomes worse to be an “obligatory” precondition for being saved, or else an eternal penalty:
    Mt 25
    44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment:

    2. Being the Hypocrites is no longer counted as a bad “manner” or small sin, but worse to be the “damnation” for a great penalty:
    Mt 7
    26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

    3. Having or doing a relatively less goodness is no more a life’s “personal choice” that can be pardoned, but worse to be the “great unpardonable” sin:
    Mt 22
    11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

  37. 4. Human sacrifice becomes more and more addictive, it does not end with Jesus:
    Jn 15:13
    Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
    1Jn 3:16
    Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

    5. Jesus ends totally the personal Christian’s Constitutional basic rights to keep and bear arms, both for the self-defense and for correcting the tyrannical rulers, but rather he orders them to flee away in a cowardice:
    Mt 26:52
    Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
    Mt 10:23
    But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

  38. 7. Faith Alone (Sola Fide) is nothing if a Christian does not forgive the sins of others.
    Is Jesus a Mormon?
    Jesus approves Mormon’s belief in Doctrine and Covenants 82:7, And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God.
    Mt 18
    32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

    8. Bible’s God can change His mind in salvation.
    God of the NT Bible is not Calvinist, he is unpredictable, he does not trust his elects:
    Mt 18
    27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

  39. Is Jesus a Mormon?
    Mormons believe in the return of “former sins” once a repentant commits the same sin again:
    Doctrine and Covenants 82:7, And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the FORMER SINS return, saith the Lord your God.
    Similarity:
    Mt 18:34
    And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

  40. Is Jesus a Mormon?
    Mormons believe in the return of “former sins” once a repentant commits the same sin again:
    Doctrine and Covenants 82:7, And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the FORMER SINS return, saith the Lord your God.
    Similarity:
    Mt 12
    43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.44
    Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

  41. 9. After the time of Jesus, now the act of feeding the poor becomes obligation with punishment for failing to do so, as in story of the rich man and Lazarus. It is noticeable that the rich man just went to the torment in Hell simply because he didn’t feed him, not for the major sins.
    Lk 16
    19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:20
    And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

  42. 10. In the parable of lazy and foolish virgins, Jesus makes it so obvious that five foolish virgins waited for him (meaning that they know Jesus in their faith), and they did not commit the major sins whatsoever, but they were just lazy.
    Now, somehow, somewhat, the “laziness” of doing a goodness becomes an “unpardonable major sin” causing the penalty of eternal Hell. Jesus makes the laws far more difficult.
    Mt 25
    8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are GONE OUT.9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.12
    But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

  43. 6. 6. Faith Alone (Sola Fide) is nothing if a Christian does not do what Jesus says.
    Now, after the time of Jesus, the act of doing the goodness becomes obligatory with additional consequence of great penalty for failing to do so.
    Lk 6
    46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

  44. 11. In parable of Prodigal Son, the sinful son still needs to crawl back to his father’s house “after” regretting his bad deeds. Parable of Prodigal Son makes it clear that a repentant needs to do a goodness (going back, returning, coming home) after regretting before being embraced (being forgiven).
    Lk 15
    17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father’s have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger 18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

  45. Inconsistent treatments:
    – Zacchaeus (giving up half of wealth) gets salvation.
    – Ananias (giving up several wealth) gets death on the spot.
    – the young rich man (giving up *all* his wealth) gets the Hell?
    Lk 19
    8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
    Versus:
    Lk 18
    22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God 25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle’s eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
    Versus:
    Acts 5
    2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles’ feet.5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

  46. 12. the NT Bible treats the charity with “Inconsistent rewards” for different persons:
    – Zacchaeus (giving up just a half of his wealth) gets salvation.
    – Ananias (giving up several wealth) gets death on the spot.
    – the young rich man (not giving up *all* his wealth) cannot enter Heaven till the camel goes into needle’s eye?
    Lk 19
    8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
    Versus:
    Lk 18
    22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God 25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle’s eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
    Versus:
    Acts 5
    2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles’ feet.5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

  47. Is Jesus a Mormon?
    Mormons believe in the return of “former sins” once a repentant commits the same sin again:
    Doctrine and Covenants 82:7, And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the FORMER SINS return, saith the Lord your God.
    Similarity:
    Jn 5:14
    Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a WORSE thing come unto thee.
    Mt 18:34
    And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should PAY all that was due unto him.
    Mt 12:45
    Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is WORSE than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

  48. In the story of Zacchaeus, one may be tempted to think that Zacchaeus successfully “buys his way” to heaven, just with a half of his money.

    That’s half true, half false.

    According to the parable of talents, there are differing talents.
    A charitable distribution for the poor is a reasonable obligation for the rich believers. On other hand, the poor believers are required just to endure and believe (as parable of Lazarus).

    1. “Anonymous says: In the story of Zacchaeus, one may be tempted to think that Zacchaeus successfully “buys his way” to heaven, just with a half of his money.”

      In Islam, nothing can buy the ways to Heaven except God’s mercy.

      Islamic Charity is a way of the life’s purifying (a kind of worldly Purgatory) per Q.9, v.103, so that later in Afterlife the heat of Hell could be felt as harmless as the cool water.
      Q.9, v.103. Take from their wealth a charity by which you purify them and cause them increase, and pray for them. Indeed, your prayers for them are blessing calm for them. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

  49. Zacchaeus’ story along with the rich man’s dialogue with Jesus had been used as argument for the selling of Purgatorial letters known “Indulgences” as by the Medieval Catholics.

  50. The story of the rich man is intriguingly

    Jesus responds a question with question “why do you call me good”? Most Trinitarians forget how this is a question that destroys apart any “sense of goodness” of Jesus: he makes a more narrower strait and more difficult (more expensive) precondition to buy your ways to Heaven, firstly with the obedience of Moses’s Laws and then additional obligation of “giving up” all wealth you have .

    Making the way more stricter than ever is not a good character, but a bad one.

    If Jesus were the same good Jehovah of the Old Testament, he would not have put a more difficulty on a rich Jew for buying his ways to Heaven.

  51. Sometimes Jesus never gets several secret items the Father never gives him:
    Mk 10:40
    But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but [it shall be given to them] for whom it is prepared.
    Mt 20:23
    And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

  52. Is there contradiction between in Isaiah 44:24 and Hebrews 1:3? No.

    In Isaiah 44:24 , Jehovah acts alone, that is “I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself” from non-existence, whereas in Heb 1:3 Jesus is passive representative who upholds the existent things.

    That’s why Jesus still needs to some loaves of bread and fishes to multiply them into thousand loaves, but he can’t make it ex-nihilo.

    God builds, creates, and makes “all things” creatio ex-nihilo, compared to Jesus who is just passively set for an agency of creation, or at most the builder of a “house” where Moses is its servant:
    Eph 3:9
    Which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
    Rev 4:11
    Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
    Heb 3
    2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

  53. Are there many saviors or just one?

    The NT Bible depicts Moses as saviour (deliverer, redeemer) in Acts 7:35, just like Jesus was in Rom 11:26.
    When Isaiah in Isa 43:11 records and writes down what Jehovah says “beside me there’s no saviour”, Jehovah talks about the absolute negation of needing any saviour to save him.
    Hence, the phrase Isa 43:11 can be understood as “there’s no saviour for me”.

    On other hand, Jesus still needs both persons (Father and Spirit) altogether to save Jesus from death:
    Gal 1:1
    Paul, an apostle, not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ; and God the Father, who raised him from the dead,
    Rom 8:11
    But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

    Jesus is a saviour who still needs God to save him.
    Isa 59:20
    And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
    Rom 11:26
    And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

    Moses is a saviour (deliverer, redeemer) who still needs God to save him.
    Acts 7:35
    This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a Deliverer (Lytroten) by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.

    .

  54. Is Jesus the Alpha and the Omega?

    On the topic of Alpha and Omega, usually the Trinitarians avoid at all cost a “wording” analysis for Rev 22:9-10 in which there’s two phrases: “Then saith he me” and “And he saith to me”.
    The Trinitarians do not have a consistent explanation to clearly identify who “he” is, and who “me” is at both verses. They just immediately skip both phrases in order to avoid being refuted.

    Now, for Rev 22:9, the Unitarians have a consistent interpretation that John uses a phrase “Then saith he (God) to me (angel or John)” thus it is about the talking of God to angel or John.
    Similarly, for Rev 22:10 the Unitarians interpret it as “And he (God) saith to me (angel or John). Thus, the original speaker is God.

    Other Unitarian interpretation is, the phrase in Rev 22:9 can be understood as “Then saith he (angel) to me (John)”, thus the speaker (who then uses “I am” for himself) is angel.
    Similarly, for Rev 22:10 the phrase is “And he (angel) saith to me (John)”, thus the speaker (who then uses “I am” for himself) is angel.

    Rev 22
    9 Then *saith he* unto me, See thou do it not: for *I am* thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.10 And *he saith* unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.13 *I am* Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

    Concerning Rev 1:11, it refers to the “great voice” of Alpha and Omega with trumpet, whereas in Rev 1:17 a figure like Son of Man omits the words “Alpha” and “Omega” for himself by rather using an usual voice “I am the first and the last” (without a great voice).

    Moreover, Concerning Rev 1:11, the oldest manuscripts consistently agree that there’s no phrase “Alpha and Omega” for Jesus.
    //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_and_Omega
    Several later manuscripts repeat “I am the Alpha and Omega” in 1 v 11 too, but do not receive support here from most of the oldest manuscripts, including the Alexandrine, Sinaitic, and Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus. It is, therefore, omitted in some modern translations. Scholar Robert Young stated, with regard to “I am the Alpha and Omega” in 1 v 11, the “oldest [manuscripts] omit” it.[3]
    [3] Young, Robert (1977). Young’s Concise Commentary on the Holy Bible. p. 180.

    1. I have read some commentaries from your fellow Unitarians somewhere that John 17:3 infers that Jesus believes in many “false YHVHs, false gods, and false sons of gods” including himself.

      By stating “Thee, the only true God” in Heaven, Jesus confesses a sharp distinction between himself (on earth) and YHVH (in Heaven).

      Since YHVH is “Thee”, the only true God who sits in Heaven, we can deduce that Jesus believes in many false YHVHs too, including the false YHVHs of Trinitarian versions (i.e. earthy YHVH) mentioned in several verses in the Book of Genesis.

      1. [email protected] says: I have read some commentaries from your fellow Unitarians somewhere that John 17:3 infers that Jesus believes in many “false YHVHs, false gods, and false sons of gods” including himself.
        By stating “Thee, the only true God” in Heaven, Jesus confesses a sharp distinction between himself (on earth) and YHVH (in Heaven).
        Since YHVH is “Thee”, the only true God who sits in Heaven, we can deduce that Jesus believes in many false YHVHs too, including the false YHVHs of Trinitarian versions (i.e. earthy YHVH) mentioned in several verses in the Book of Genesis.”

        Brilliant put.
        I concur. That simple distinction of “Thee” in Heaven and Jesus on earth just perfectly and vigorously buried down a silly defunct belief in Two Jehovahs.

        1. I think you make day there. A symbolic Jesus’ gesture of lifting up his eyes to heaven solves all “Elohim” puzzle of problem since the days of Adam.

          Jesus affirms that Jehovah is the only true God in Heaven. Other Jehovahs on the earth are false gods.

        2. John 17:1-3 solve this puzzle of Gen 19:24.
          Jehovah in heaven is the only true God. Other so-called Jehovahs on the earth are false gods. Or ttherwise, Jesus made a theological mistake.

          Gen 19:24
          Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone, and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

        3. I may add that Jesus uses the word “Only” (Greek: Mono), comparable with Echad in Hebrew.
          Now, since the Father is the “Jehovah Echad” in Heaven, Jesus fulfills:
          Zech 14:9
          And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one (Echad).

        4. The Greek word “Mono”, which is “Echad” in Hebrew, that Jesus uses in John 17:3 for Jehovah in Heaven has a huge Unitarian impact on Shema:
          Mk 12:29
          And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one (Mono in Greek, Echad in Hebrew) Lord:

          The Father is not a compound sub-persons, right?
          The Father in Heaven is already the Echad, Mono, the only.

  55. Moreover, the use of Greek word “Heis” as synonym of Mono (and in Hebrew Echad) by Jesus for Jehovah in Heaven opon John 17:3 makes 1 Cor 8:6 fully understandable in Unitarian belief.
    Other earthy gods and earthy Jehovahs are false gods.
    Jn 17:3
    And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only (Mono in Greek, Echad in Hebrew) true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
    1Cor 8:6
    But to us there is but one (Heis = Mono in Greek, Echad in Hebrew) God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

  56. Jehovah of Heaven is the only true God whom Jesus gives thanks.
    In Matthew 11:25, after a weird scene of angers and curses, suddenly Jesus thanked God for being given a knowledge of “truth” which had been concealed from even Jesus’ own wise and prudent life.

    As Jesus is the wise person around among the cursed ones, logically he personally thanks Jehovah of Heaven for giving him some hidden truths.
    Mt 11
    20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not, 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

    In Acts 17:24, Paul describes Jehovah of Heaven as the sole life-giver to all living ones, even to Jesus (per John 5:26).
    Acts 17
    24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
    Jn 5:26
    For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

  57. Is the Jewish king related always to the Son in Psalm 2:7?

    Not really, actually.
    Not all kings are given the title “Son”, let alone “Elohim”. Only righteous kings received them.
    There are many sinful kings of Jews who DON’T get additional coronation (exaltation) titles from Jehovah. The 1st king of Israel (king Saul) is anointed indeed, but he is not further exalted as the Son, let alone as Elohim. Exaltation of Jewish kings started with David, not with Saul. Other sinful kings of Jews and Israelites are not regarded at all as Son or Elohim.

    In Heb 1:1-10, the King (Melek) of throne in Ps 45:1-6 refers to two notable persons: David and Solomon. Both kings are recipient of two additional religious titles “Son” (in Ps 2:7 for David, in 1Chron 28:6 for Solomon) and “Elohim” in Ps 45:6.
    Thus, both righteous kings are Son-holders and Elohim-holders. They are prototype for the future Messianic Son, i.e. Jesus, but not only him.

    Now, the belief of the Arians and Unitarians regarding Heb 1:8 and Psalm 45:1-6 is, the title of “Elohim” is given to all righteous kings in the Heaven (24 Elders) and to the specific resurrected believers on the earth, who will reign as the righteous kings along with Jesus, during 1000 years Kingdom. Thus, undoubtedly, there will be so many Elohim-Kings in 1000 year reign in the future, not only Jesus.

    Psalms 45:6 and Psalms 102:25 refer to “many” Elohim-Kings, not only to Jesus.
    (i) Elohim-Kings in Heaven:
    Rev 1:6
    And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father;
    Rev 5:10
    And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

    Elohim-Kings on the earth:
    Rev 21:24
    And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
    Rev 2
    26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

  58. If the Trinitarians employ arguments of “Elohim” in Heb 1:8 and Ps 45:6, they clearly fail to make Jesus much different from other righteous Elohim-Kings in the same Messianic Era. Rather, they reduced the status of Jesus to be as high as the Heavenly Kings and righteous earthy kings.

  59. In the belief of Arians and Unitarians, Heb 1:9 or Psalm 45:6 proves that the “Elohim” gets *anointed* by “his God”. Elohim-king has his superior God.

    The anointing one in Heb 1:9 or Psalam 45:6 is God for the anointed Elohim. Thus, the person in Heb 1:9 and Ps 45:6 is Elohim-Kings and earthy righteous kings, including Jesus. Throughout the Bible, Jehovah is not a worshiper of more higher God, whereas the Son worships his Father as his God.

    Thus, in Heb 1:9 Jesus is NOT Jehovah whose title is “God of gods”.
    Heb 1:9
    Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

  60. Matthew 22:44-45 are two most Dualistic refutation of Jesus’ divinity from the Unitarian belief. Both verses show the Spirit’s inspiration how even for his Messiah’s *heavenly* nature Jesus is not Jehovah at all, but just as David’s Lord.
    Mt 22:45
    If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

    Matthew 22:45 is well-known a typical Jesus’ support for a *heavenly nature* of himself as Messiah.

    But, now, David calls that very Messiah’s heavenly nature just “my Lord” (Hebrew: Adoni), not my Jehovah (Hebrew: Adonay). What does it mean?
    It means clearly that even the heavenly nature of Jesus (Son of God) is not Jehovah.
    Mt 22:44
    The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

    For other arguments, if both “the LORD” and “my Lord” in Matthew 22:44 are interpreted as Jehovah, it becomes far worse because there would have been two Jehovahs: “Jehovah said unto my Jehovah”, hence it violates Shema:
    Mk 12:29
    And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.

  61. In the debate of Duality of Jesus, there’s a contention between Monophysites and Dyophysites.
    Dyophysites (common Trinitarians) believe that “person” of Jesus has 2 natures.
    Monophysites argue that if the Second Person has 2 natures after the incarnation, then he cannot longer be equal with Father whose person has one nature, and cannot be equal with Spirit whose person has one nature.

    1 Persons with 2 natures must be less pure than 1 person with 1 nature.

  62. Moreover, Monophysites alos argue that if Jesus has human nature, he must have had a human person.
    Now, where is “he” (that human person)?
    We don’t count a “human nature” without having a human person.

  63. In other words, Monophysites argue that it is impossible for human nature without human person, unless it is a “corpse”, hence such a living Jesus is not 100% human and 100% god, but just let say 1% human and 100% god.

  64. Technology cloning just destroys all basic argument for the Triune God. Suppose that the world has 3 male clones with 1 same fingerprint, we call such entity “Three” men (plural in nature, plural in persons), not 1 man.

    3 male clones have 3 consciousnesses (3 persons), having 1 same body’s (nature) characteristic….But we call such cloning “it”, not “he”.
    Moreover, we call it “them”, not “he”, by just dismissing the cloning’s equality of them.

  65. Eve (person) is a cloning of Adam (person), taken rightly from his rib (nature).

    But we regard both Adam (he) and Eve (she) as two humans (them), not “he”, by just dismissing their co-equal nature.

    1. Interesting, the Trinity is like a cloning coming from Father’s mouth.

      I may add that from my Islamic point of view, we Moslems believe there’s a miracle of breathing the clay to be a living bird by Jesus. It is from the Arabic Infancy Gospel.
      Now, we Moslems just found that the facts or reason why the Trinitarians reject that Infancy’s miracle at all cost is because it is potentially resembling a living word coming from Father’s mouth or bosom.

      Jesus = being generated from Father’s mouth.
      Bird from clay = being generated from Jesus’ mouth.
      If Jesus were God, then the living bird coming from Jesus’ mouth must have been a God.

      In the Bible we can read similarity:
      – act of releasing the rod from Moses’ hand, to generate a living serpent by Moses.
      – act of breathing the bones and skulls from Ezekiel’s mouth, to generate a group of the new living humans.

      Triumvirate of the Satanic forces also did the same by generating the living spirit from their breath.
      Rev 16
      13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

    2. I think if you clone an animal, the copy has the same sex as the original. Some kind of genetic engineering had to take place to put into place the reproductive capacity. Eve was a helper and not intended to be fully equal to Adam physically.

  66. A solid Proof that “Jesus” whom Paul *prays to* is a deceitful devil in the form of a daylight’s voice, not the true Jesus who in fact teaches the true praying “to God” in him:
    Jesus:
    Jn 16:23
    And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

    Paul prays “to” his false Jesus, and that false Jesus disappoints him big time by his supports of devils (Satan will not cast out nor weaken other satan, remember?)
    2Cor 12
    7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.
    Mt 12:26
    And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

  67. A solid Proof that “Jesus” whom Stephen *prays to* is a deceitful barbaric devil who approves, gives a nod, enjoys a horrible spectacle of Jewish stoning on Stephen (his own supposed follower), thus he is not the true Jesus.
    With that kind of monster, who needs devil?
    Acts 7
    56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man’s feet, whose name was Saul.59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

  68. A solid Proof that the “Father” whom Paul preaches as “Unknown God* in front of the Athenians is a pagan Titan of Greek whose name is Eumenides or new Furies.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unknown_God
    His listeners may also have understood the introduction of a new god by allusions to Aeschylus’ The Eumenides; the irony would have been that just as the Eumenides were not new gods at all but the Furies in a new form, so was the Christian God not a new god but rather the god the Greeks already worshipped as the Unknown God. [7]
    [7] Kauppi, Lynn Allan (2006). “Acts 17.16-34 and Aeschylus’ Eumenides”. Foreign but familiar gods: Greco-Romans read religion in Acts. Continuum International Publishing Group. pp. 83–93. ISBN 0-567-08097-8.

    The Eumenides
    Setting before the temple of Apollo at Delphi and in Athens
    The final play of the Oresteia, called The Eumenides, illustrates how the sequence of events in the trilogy end up in the development of social order or a proper judicial system in Athenian society.[1] In this play, Orestes is hunted down and tormented by the Furies, a trio of goddesses known to be the instruments of justice, who are also euphemistically referred to as the “Gracious Ones” (Eumenides).
    They relentlessly pursue Orestes for the killing of his mother.[9] However, through the intervention of Apollo, Orestes is able to escape them for a brief moment while they are asleep and head to Athens under the protection of Hermes. Seeing the Furies asleep, Clytemnestra’s ghost comes to wake them up to obtain justice on her son Orestes for killing her.[10]
    After waking up, the Furies hunt down Orestes again and when they find him, Orestes pleads to the goddess Athena for help and she responds by setting up a trial for him in Athens on the Areopagus. This trial is made up of a group of twelve Athenian citizens and is supervised by none other than Athena herself. Here Orestes is used as a trial dummy by Athena to set-up the first courtroom trial. He is also the object of central focus between the Furies, Apollo, and Athena.[1] After the trial comes to an end, the votes are tied. Athena casts the deciding vote and determines that Orestes will not be killed.[11]
    This ultimately does not sit well with the Furies, but Athena eventually persuades them to accept the decision and, instead of violently retaliating against wrongdoers, become a constructive force of vigilance in Athens. She then changes their names from the Furies to “the Eumenides” which means “the Kindly Ones”.[12]

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